Seniors Views of the Future & Technology ~ Rea Export

Discuss how you see the world in about ten years and your hopes regarding the uses of computer technologies to benefit seniors and the rest of society. What types of tools, resources and uses do you want to see developed?

What are your concerns about the uses of technology in the future?

The continued aging of the population of the United States is creating an unprecedented set of challenges and opportunities. High-speed broadband networks offer several important advantages over slower narrowband networks:

First, they make it possible to add high-quality two-way video to today’s voice and text communications. Second, they provide instant access to rich multimedia content. Third, broadband’s “always on” feature makes communications more convenient and supports a broad range of continuous, unobtrusive monitoring services. Finally, once broadband networks, both wired and wireless, become ubiquitous, users will be able to access any content from anywhere at any time.

While broadband applications will be of value to many segments of society, some applications will be of special importance to seniors. Among them:

family and friends staying closely connected even if they are geographically separated

improving the delivery of health care services

supporting independent living

expanding opportunities for life long learning

See the summary of a new research report on Broadband and Older Americans. Download the full report or read a scenario of a fictional senior in her early 80s and how technology affects her life in the world of the not-too-distant tomorrow.

We have permission from the author for you to copy excerpts of the paper here for purposes of discussion.

As the temporary discussion leader for this forum, I admit in advance that I know almost nothing about Broadband but I am most interested in any development that will make life easier and more interesting for us. So I began by clicking on this LINK to acquainted myself with the Congressional mandate that brought this wonderful new technology into existence. I did not read the entire Congressional Bill and you may not want to read it all, but the first few paragraphs will give you an idea of the wonderful Future that in store for all of us here.

What do you think?

Robby

I found this excerpt of special interest. It certainly got me all stirred up. How about you folks?

"Individuals with Disabilities:

Broadband is essential to meet the promise that Internet-based applications can bring to those with disabilities- including: better communication for deaf and hard of hearing through interactive video services, and improved audio transmission for the blind.

Increases independent living and economic opportunity through telemedicine, distance learning, and other applications.

Broadband provides a "window" of information to the world for those whose mobility is limited.

Facilitates communication and monitoring for those in need.
Seniors:

Share the quality-of-life improvements that benefit individuals with disabilities.

Presently, seniors are the fastest growing online group. Their needs will only be increasing with the aging of the Babyboomer generation.
Healthcare:

Broadband is critical for the development (and use) of applications including telemedicine -distant evaluation, treatment.

Greater technological development of Internet services may have "spillover" effects, leading to improvements in healthcare technology.
Education:

Broadband allows for mixed-media communication, distance learning, and increased access to a greater amount of information for research and other educational purposes.

Student access to broadband (at home) is essential for keeping them competitive in the global economy. This will need to begin at the K-12 level."
Robby

This is quite interesting Robby. At first I asked myself: "What is Broadband Technology?" I asked my son-in-law and he told me it is something I already have with a High Speed Modem on my computer. Perhaps there is a better explanation for those, like me, who only acquire technology at a slow pace.

I think it is a great idea to expand Senior's interests through the Internet. I will see what others say about this and how it will impact on our future.

Eloïse

If the only tool you have is a hammer, then all your problems will look like nails. This is what frightens me about computers. If we reach the point that our only nexus with the world is through an electronic gadget, then we'll know only virtual reality and miss the greater part of living. Already we see this happening with kids. Not long ago we had groups of kids of assorted ages and backgrounds playing street hockey and other pickup games in the streets and neighborhoods. Now we never sees such things. I suspect that is because the kids are all indoors alone with their computers.

Where are they to learn their real connection with the physical world and with other people? The next generation is being shaped right now by interaction with electronic gadgets and it looks like they will be isolated, insular, and alone. The word for this condition is anomie and its best known exemplar is J. Alfred Prufrock.

Jerry, you say:--"Where are they to learn their real connection with the physical world and with other people? The next generation is being shaped right now by interaction with electronic gadgets."
Are you suggesting that we "older" folks should refrain from the use of the computer? -- that there should not be an interaction between the technology wave and the age wave?

Robby

Robby I am here and will lurk and learn for a while! Know nothing about broadband but at this identical second I don't want one more bit of the NEW technology (other than in the medical field and I am not sure about that!!).

Hello all. You might want to read the excerpt from the report on Broadband and Older Adults that we've just added on our site. It's at http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=6697.

It is written for the lay person so it will hopefully give us some idea of what to expect in the near future.

About your post "Jerry Jennings - 11:51am Jun 26, 2002 PDT (#4 of 7)"

This was my complaint of equiping our schools so heavily with computers. I believe they should teach this science but as a seperate course/subject. The computers at school shouldn't be available for common math problems or to use as spell checkers so the studend doesn't have to learn it (spelling, math) themselves.

The document to which Marcie furnished us a link says:--
1 - The combination of ever-more powerful computers and increasingly high-speed communications networks is likely to bring about even more far-reaching changes.
2 - At the same time, the continued aging of the population of the United States is creating an unprecedentd set of challenges and opportunities.
The question (as proposed by this document):--
Can the widespread availability of broadband networks play a role in supporting and enhancing the lives of older Americans?
Allow me to ask a similar question in my own style:--
Are those of us Seniors whose minds are still forward-looking and curious willing to ignore the opportunities that such technology is offering us?

Robby

They go hand in hand for the simple reason that seniors have had to adapt to something new all their lives. When a telephone was first installed in the house it was so exciting that everybody quickly learned know how to use it. The difference between today’s technology and the telephone of old is that the younger generation learned how to use computer technology before seniors did. It is like learning in reverse.

The computer takes a bit more time and patience to learn, but if we adapted to something new all our lives, we will adapt to technology as it progresses and adopt it as an indispensable tool for making our lives richer, more rewarding.

Seniors are well aware of the benefits that computer knowledge brings to their lives. It not only brings families together, it creates new bonds between complete strangers sharing the same interests. It expands the mind tenfold and rejuvenates the learning capacity. It improves the memory. It gives a boost to creativity. That creativity brings together seniors who share the same interests. It lessens the feeling of loneliness and the feeling of insecurity.

Seniors who have not adopted technology as a friend, will soon realize that it is well worth the effort to make learning it a priority.

I've had Winfirst as my ISP for about 6 months

It is really fast. They advertise they are 25 times faster than DSL. It is a fibre optic cable and, also broadband, I think.

Their web site is www.winfirst.com. The site shows that is now available only in Sacramento, CA and then only in a few neighborhoods. When the salesman called it took me about 22 seconds to sign up.

Bad news is they are going bankrupt--expanded too fast, but it appears someone may take over and keep up the service.

Certainly hope so. Have been spoiled.

Seldom:--How has such rapidity changed your life (everyday or long term)?

Robby

Robby, if I may answer your question whether rapidity changed my life? I would say no because I had cable before I had 'high speed modem' and all that 'broadband' (a new word for me) does, it makes connection much faster. It is instant. It will not change my life, just make it easier, less time spent waiting for download and for surfing. Time is what is important, I don't like sitting in front of the computer waiting for a page to turn up.

Furthermore, if I am constantly connected, I can come here anytime and it is available and quick. I still have a hard time to learn how to do something new. It is not easy for me.

I was in Spain for the last 6 weeks for a study session about seniors. I can say that in America, Canada too, we are very fortunate to be able to have computers. Spain is fairly modern and up to date but a PC is not part of a household like it is here. It is more expensive, and not many seniors know how to use it. It is mostly used by a much younger group of people, University students, Professionals, businesses.

Eloïse

Due to my being impulsive and always in a hurry, I may have posted my message in the wrong place. So,if you're interested in my comment, you'l find it in "Aging" However, to save you time, I will repeat my question, Does this new technology have anything to do with HDTV, since they are in the process of changing over now, and I've heard our present TV's will be onsolete in a few years. I'll be doing more lurking and listening, this whole thing sounds too high tech for me.

Broadband has changed my life too many ways to itemize.

For instance; I use Google to search now without hesitation because it is so fast. Previously I would waste a lot of time going from one site to another and wait & wait for each windo to load up.

And it's wonderful for travelling. I can look up airline and bus schedules quickly and find ALL options available rather than by phone and get only schedules the person has the time, or wish, to offer.

Tried on line banking before but it was too slow. But have just started and paid my first four bills last night about 10pm----no written checks, no stamps, etc.

But the younger generation takes much more advantage of new technology. Our son's family in Seattle loves to sit in front of their fireplace on cold, rainy nites. Found they didn't have time, so went high tech and bought a micro-fireplace. Now they sit in front of their fireplace for an entire evening in less than 30 seconds!

Oops. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Diva:--I don't know the answer to your question but perhaps someone else here does.

Robby

I had no idea it, Broadband Technology, was already in use, perhaps you can explain more about it. I have an open mind but I'd like to know more about it. In terms that I can understand, since you aren't trying to sell us anything, maybe you can educate us/me.

Broadband

High-speed transmission. The term is commonly used to refer to communications lines or services at T1 rates (1.544 Mbps) and above. The speed threshold of broadband is subjective and can be above or below T1. Some claim 45 Mbps is the starting point of broadband. In every case however, it implies transmitting at higher speeds than what was common before. Broadband often refers to Internet access using cable modems and DSL, both of which deliver speeds above and below T1. See T1, cable modem and DSL.

A method of transmitting data, voice and video using frequency division multiplexing (FDM), such as used with cable TV. Modems are required to modulate digital data streams onto the line. Broadband in this context is used in contrast with baseband, which is all digital transmission and uses time division multiplexing (TDM). However, the term is mostly used in definition #1 above.

I got this definition from Atomica who use American Heritage Dictionary.

Faith:--All of which says to me (in non-technical terms) that our computers are going to move as rapidly as our thoughts.

Robby

Well, I don't have a T-1, but I do have DSL, so I guess that qualifies as broadband under one of those definitions. I really like banking by Internet. I pay a number of my bills over the Internet, either by getting an online bill and paying it online or by having authorized a draft from my account. I check my account every day or so and can see what has cleared and what has not. I can also go to a number of Web sites (for example, VISA, Discover, Sears) and see when a payment clears, what my balance is, and even if somebody has charged something I didn't authorize.

(That happened the other day. I took advantage of a one-week membership for $5 to eDiets. When I checked my credit card account, they had charged not only the $5 but also $50. I have searched their Web site and have found no mention of $50, so complained to eDiets. They told me they'd quit taking out the $50 the next month. I have protested the amount to my credit card company.)

As for me, I love technology. There are some parts I don't get -- like how to tape off my cable television and get the right channel! -- but on the whole I love it. In fact, at work I now have two monitors. They act like one great big monitor, but you can have two full-size windows open at the same time and can copy and paste between them. It's neat! And it makes work a lot easier. That's the point of technology for me -- to make work easier.

Broadband is good but need to check first to see if you use computer enough to warrent spending the $65 dollars a month. This is what it is now in my area. Keeps going up.. I had cable for awile from ATandT but they had many problems. One day maybe all will be Broadband and price will come down but not as long as there are so few of them yet. Once ISP were more expensive than they are now but they seem to be getting slower all the time.

JeanneP

The TECHXNY/PC XPO at the Javits Center, NY which ended today, showcased several versions of a new platform called 'Tablet PC'. These devices are due to be rolled out this fall. The Operating system, Windows XP Professional Tablet Edition is scheduled for release by Microsoft November. There were a few versions from different manufacturers (eg. Sony, Acer, Toshiba) were on view at the show.There were two form factors, a slate and a notebook style. They both had a digitizer display that is sensitive to a special stylus. The operating system permits entering handwritten data. The system recognizes most handwriting without training the computer. The system will also have voice recognition program that the user must train. Is this the answer to keyboard phobia? Do you think this is a boon or bust? If you are interested in getting more information click: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/productinfo/default.asp

Alvin Shatkin - Thank you for the link. I was most interested in Tablet PC because so many people would love to be able to use a computer, but they have not mastered the keyboard and unless you can type fairly fast, it must be very frustrating. If Tablet PC recognizes handwriting, it would it mean that their keyboard would be different, would the function keys stay, those ones on the right of the keyboard, arrows, insert, delete, page up, page down, numbers, etc.?

Unless touch typing is taught in school at an early age, Technology had to move on to another form of writing for the computer. Handwriting and voice recognition will be so practical for those who have keyboard phobia as you say and open up access to the computer to a whole lot of new people who are just unble or unwilling to learn typing. I think that this new technology will be very appreciated.

Eloïse

I forgot to mention the other advantage of banking over the Internet -- the ability to transfer funds from one account to another. In anticipation of paying some medical bills the other day, I moved some money out of my savings and into my checking. The move took place instantly. The only time I go to the bank anymore is when I have a check to deposit, and that doesn't happen very often since I have direct deposit.

Any thoughts here on how Technology in the Future will help expand opportunities to Seniors for lifelong learning?

Robby

The Broadband Communications system has been around since about 1954. It began when telephone lines were replaced by Microwave Towers and Coaxial Tube cables. It has continued with the change to Fiber Optic "Light Tubes". As the usable capacity of these "Light Tubes" is being explored, the ordinary uses will expand to fill that capacity. It is projected that by changing the color of the lazer, the capacity of the Light Tube can be doubled, maybe even tripled. At the present use, it would take more than 15 million single pairs of copper wire to cary the voice messages that can be sent on one fiber Light Tube. If you remember the "Open Wire" telephone systems you can imagine the array of wires that would clutter the countryside if it were not for the advances made.
Someone asked if the Broadband concept was connected to HDTV. The connection is there but reversed. HDTV has been made possible because the Broadband Communications are available.
As to the future, I see many more advances coming. They will all be met with the opposition and political interference that has been inherent to changes since time began. It Sounds Great To Me.

Theron

The tablet pc will be fun for those with enough money to experiment but I would wait until the "bugs" are out of it. I have kids in computer world jobs and they say the versions they have seen so far have a difficult time recognizing handwriting. But that is always the way with technology. Some people will always be in advance of the rest of us and I am glad of it. I would be an experimenter myself if I could afford it.

As far as continuing education and leaning on into old age there never has been an invention as wonderful as the computer world. It is almost like attending a "school" of somekind. When I hear of a subject that interests me I get on here and do some reasearch and pretty soon I have spent hours in study of a subject I never thought I would have access to without going to school or a large reasearch library and spending hours with books and perhaps not finding what was pertinent before I lost interest. It seems to be the speed with which I can access new information that makes me stick to a subject and really learn a lot about it. Faith

Faithr, like you I learned so much through the computer, I started using it about 15 years ago. Then it was so difficult to learn. But now, I can enjoy doing things I never would have done before. It has expanded my horizons because I used to hate handwriting, I never have to hand write any more.

Since I have the Internet, I can correspond with all my children who live far away even on a daily basis if they had the time for that, but of course they don't. When we wanted to organize a family Christmas reunion with all the children who are so spread out, it would have been much more difficult, but with email we managed it. We didn't have to make one phone call, all we had to do was send copies of instructions on how to get to the place in the country we had rented for the 21 of us.

The Internet has brought my family closer together because we can email often and it is so instant. I see it as a means of communication that has no parallel and it is improving.

I am wondering how many on SeniorNet have seen an improvement in their lives since they have a computer and what has improved. Did it improve their social contacts? or did social contacts diminish because they spend too many hours on the computer. It would be interesting to know.

Eloïse

Some people, like myself cannot socialise like others. My PC has made my life a lot fuller and I consider the very close cyber pals I have made real friends not virtual ones. I have a very dear friend in California I met through a dog breed list and we send each other presents and snail mail letters at special times. Recently she had radical surgery for breast cancer and I phoned her several times before and after surgery to give her my love and encouragement.

I met a dear lady through SN who lives a three hour drive from me who has the same breed of dogs I have and we talk on MSN every day and have made firm arrangements to meet in my city once the flu season is over.

I saw a documentary where the health of people living in remote areas was monitored online. There was attachments to the PC to measure blood pressure and heart function. The nurses and doctors could evaluate the patients condition and advise when they needed to be taken to populated areas for face to face consultations. I think this type of technology is a grand idea.

Carolyn

Post script

The internet allows more contact with people who have the same interests as myself. For instance I can participate in book discussions. There are no book clubs in my area. I am using my brain every day now! I must say however that there is not a web site on the net that compares with SN for quality and sense of community. I am amazed more seniors in my country have not availed themselves of the opportunity to interact with other seniors round the world. I know there are many seniors with PCs here and only a few who have sought out SN although it was publicised recently as an excellent website in an internet magazine.

Carolyn

Kiwi Lady: I am interested in the article in an "Internet Magazine" you referred to. Is it available only in N.Z., (if that is where you live.) We can use some good Press here in the Beautiful Bronx, to stimulate more interest in our SeniorNet Learning Center. We're looking forward to the publicity initiative from SN HQ later this Summer.

My retirement budget is such that I will always have to depend on dial-up modem. The idea of putting out $65 a month for faster access is beyond reach. At this stage of my life I have more time than money, so I just have to be content with what I have. That is the secret of happiness in life anyway!

I know the apostle Paul said it in the Good Book, but in the novel Kaaterskill Falls it is written in such a lovely way...

“Isaac,” Elizabeth asks that night in bed, “how are you so content? I try, but…

He smiles at her in the dark....“Just habit,” he whispers. “It’s only habit.”

“Tell me how,” she says. “So I won’t want things.”

....“Here’s the trick.” He kisses her. “You have to want what you have.”

Whenever I start fussing about what I don't have, I always think of this "secret" and hope that I can learn to make it a habit, too.

Gail T - You know that is what my mother always said. Be content with what you have. Perhaps that is why she lived to 95 having lived a life in extreme poverty when we were all small during the depression.

Gail, You are not alone. There are many of us who can't or won't pay $50 plus just to have a speedier internet connection. But I don't think that means you will ALWAYS have to use dial-up. Everything is changing so quickly and no doubt the faster connection will someday be much more economical. It's no doubt been said before, but someday we will probably get it all -- phone, cable, internet, etc -- all thru one source.

At one time I considered myself quite tech oriented and knowledgeable -- maybe an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. Now I think I'm about a 3.5 to 4. Now all I hope is that I can keep someone informed about new gadgets and gizmos and whathaveyou. I don't want to be like some I know who still can't manage the mouse and don't know how to program a VCR. Of course, those on the cutting edge probably gave up their mice a decade ago.

Pedln, Gail, I used to pay $21 a month for my internet connection, now I pay $51. But if you can get one free without high-speed, I too would hesitate at paying that much perhaps. It was more important to me to get instant connection than to save $30 a month.

Personally, I want technology to serve my purpose. Perhaps because I am a slow lerner, I am not too anxious to have to learn something new, but the purpose I have pushes me on. I want to learn from the Internet. How does it make my life easier if I spend some time and effort (and money) for using it. It has to increase my knowledge.

I love the International aspect of it. I can communicate with people all over the world. They have had a different life than ours, but they can teach us so much from how they live in their part of the world, the problems they have to face, the solutions they find that perhaps are better than ours. Their past is different, they have gone through what we have not experienced and that is what I find interesting.

Is there a danger that it takes up too much of our time? What is the correct amount of time to spend on the computer? perhaps it is different for each one of us. Some spend all day and find it OK, some do other things.

Is there even a better way I could use the computer than they way I am using it right now? I am listening to everything everyone says with great interest and I am learning in the process.

Eloïse

Eloise me too, I learn every day. Something new from my pen pals from all over the world including a couple who made a trip from Mexico to New Zealand in a small yacht, I mean small, that had just space for the couple and two small children.

She sent me mail about what they ate and the problems fixing it on the boat and he sent mail regarding the geography of the trip. They stopped at many islands Tonga for instance and those letters were precious. They did have a web site up and now do not. They have settled in New Zealand for the time being. But I lived their adventure with them for almost two years. You could not do that by snail mail except after the fact or in a book.

Then I have broadened my mind set regarding the rest of the world and how they live. I feel I have lost a lot of the "arragonce" of the citizen of the U.S. that I feel I had as a 30something and truly began changing when I got on the internet.

Seeing and reading daily the opinions of all these others from so many places in the world has helped me define my own feelings regarding religion, morality, family obligation, etc. and many other things. It is a daily adventure. Faith

I pay a little over $25.00 per month for my unlimited internet connection. I inquired about the 'High Speed' connection (from my ISP in Sherbrooke), and was told I would have to have a new modem installed at a cost of $129,00.

When I asked the service man, from Drummondville, who fixed (?) my computer after it was infected with a virus, he said my computer already has the necessary modem.

My poor old brain just couldn't digest the two conflicting bits of information. I couldn't decide which person was right.

A long time ago (a very long time ago), I was tested to see where my talents lay. I was told I had a very analyical mind and I should do well in anything to do with research, investigation and math was my strong point.

Maybe I should have become a detective. The US government could use my so called talents to check the big corporations books. LOL

At any rate, I think the test was mistaken. I certainly didn't use any of the talents they said I had. I got married, moved to the country (from Montreal), and had four children. Then I retired! That is the story of my life. Exciting, isn't it?

We all have to admire you for continuing to learn as a senior. I think you fibbed a little when you said you were a slow learner. VBG. One thing that you have that the young students don't have, is 'Life Experience'. This gives you a tremendous advantage over the younger students.

We are happy that you are a "Senior Netter".

Gigi

Gigi: Here in my part of the US, at least, the modem you need for high speed internet is different from the one you have in your computer and use for "dial-up." I've just come on Wednesday from an "open house" here in this little town talking about High Speed access..the modem they require costs $199.00 here. That's why I'm still looking and did not commit to anything.

I have had a cable connection for about two years now and find it very good. Any reason for not considering it?

Cable service here hasn't been "top of the line" but I'll be looking into it, esp. if I can use the laptop to connect in several rooms.

What an education this is becoming!

My DSL modem which is external and supplied by the isp free if we installed it and signed up for one year of DSL service for 48.00 per month. We did that. The modem is 225.00 if you just want to buy it outright and not sign a contract, just go month by month. Mine is through the telephone company and is very fast, I never get kicked off and never have any difficulty connecting. To me is worth it. I gave up a few things to afford it but life is full of choices like that at my time of life ( and income.)

I often do not shut the computer off for a number of days. I just let the thing hibernate. I checked my power bill carefully and made notes of the months when I shut down every night and the months when I shut down once or twice a week. Bill is actually less when letting computer hibernate, so I began looking for other reasons for lower bill and decided it was less use of the toaster oven lately. That is the most costly appliance in my house I think. I love technology but do we ever have to pay for it. Not just as individuals but as whole countries. Faith

I pay $27.95 for unlimited internet access. The fast access is about $60 a month or near enough plus the modem is over $200. I will stick with what I have got for now. You can get cheaper ISP's but I have had very good technical assistance from the current one I use so I am sticking to it.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I think that technical assistance is important. I have good technical assistance with my ISP and it costs only $100 a year. So, I'll be sticking with 56K service for a while. Cable or DSL connections run between $40 and $50 a month. Also, because it's part of an education network I have access to some periodical indexes and author databases that our public library does not have available online. For me that's a big plus.

I didn't realize you had to get a new modem for DSL hookup.

Hi Every body like KL i am in NZ and do pay the same for unlimited mostly surf Geografic sites and you learn a lot from the people on them about their lives and the places thei live in I just like to talk and listen to poeple and their travels like Eloises trip to Spain and how she persived it we all learn from that and other people as well would not have been posseble without Internet exess see you all later keep a eye on you here Robert and Eloise VBG

Jerry.NZ.

Hello Eloise and Robby and all. I wasn't aware that this discussion is here until tonight.

Between the computer in my apartment addition to my daughter's house and the computers in the main house, we have five of them. All are hooked up to the same cable connection. My portion of the cost three of us pay for this service comes out of the rent I pay to my daughter. I am very happy with cable, which is much faster than my 56.6 modem.

We live outside the city in a small country development of houses on fairly large lots. There have been times when cable has gone off. When that happens, I access the internet and the World Wide Web through an ISP. Because I have my own access (cable), the cost of the ISP is less than it would be if I used the ISP access facility.

With the electronic publishing work I do, I am on and off the web many times during the day, doing searches for picture images and midi music and WAV files online, adding them to web pages offline, back online to my FTP (File Transfer Protocol) program to upload image, music and text files, and so forth. Before I had cable, it took much, much longer to build and upload a web page than it does now.

Last night I was watching a TV show about the installation of a geothermal heating and cooling heat pump system to a house in the Northeast. This is fascinating stuff, transferring heat that is already in the ground through a well water system and pipes into a structure by forced air or radiant heat pipes in the floors; then recycling the water back into the ground. Click the link to watch an animation of how this works. GEOTHERMAL HEATING AND COOLING. After watching this show and looking at the above page and thinking about the new wall air conditioning unit I have in this apartment, which is all computerized, I realized that much of life, including automobiles people drive, sewing machines, ovens in stoves, etc., is now computerized, digitalized, if you will, and I began to think I know nothing about this type of technology today.

There's so much to think about, isn't there?

Mal

Does anyone know anything about the above. suppose to be a new Internet provider. Now SBC i have as my local Tel. provider which was Ameritec. They must have gone into the ISP business with Yahoo. It offers a lot more than regular ISP does. The cost is $21.95 a month. still using a dial up modem. Would like to find others who are using it. I have not done that yet.

JeanneP

Wow everybody, I am, shall we say flabbergaster, (is that outdated?) by your posts. I am learning so much it floors me. Last December when I changed my computer for a Dell, I also got High Speed Internet. It was a good move and I leave it rummong all the time except when I travel.

Faithr - It was interesting to read about your friends travelling to New Zealand in a small boat and they sent you regular reports of their voyage on the seas. They must have felt like discoverers. I guess they sailed, did they? Interesting that on a small boat you have to use such ancient mode of propulsion to cross the oceans.

Yes, but how did the use of the computer and the internet change your life? That is what would be interesting to know. I have read that it did change it for several of us on SeniorNet. It did change mine in a substantial way. I write much more than I did a few years back and it made me practice my English that I was using less and less in Montreal. It made me connect with my children who live very far away and we got closer after that. It is wonderful that we could use the internet to try and solve family problems.

It is interesting Mal to read about how you use Technology to publish your Electronic Magazines. I only do a small portion of what you do with the computer and I have had the priviledge to read stories on Sonata and your links on Story of Civilization for which I am thankful for. It increases my brain load.

Seniors today are a mighty force to contend with. This is our opportunity to change how society perceives and it is interesting also to realize that if the years have taken some toll on our bodies, our brain is still curious about learning not only technology, but more importantly how technology is being used to make inroads internationally by communicating with people all over the world.

Isn't that what communication is all about?

Eloïse

In my work as a Clinical Psychologist, it is important that I keep up to date on the latest research. There was a time when I subscribed to innumerable professional journals and tried my best to read material in them that was pertinent to what I was doing. This became almost impossible. Scattered around the house were journals which I had been wanting to read but never got to. Ultimately they became out of date and I threw them out. I had wasted money and still hadn't read the material which I needed to know.

When I was near a University Library, I could go there to check up on the latest research. Now I am miles away from such a research center and have only the local Public Library which, while excellent for its own purpose, is not sufficient for my needs.

I am a newcomer to the computer world having bought my computer in 1998 -- only a short four years ago. At first I used it only to play Solitaire until one night I ventured into the Internet. EUREKA!! I learned that every library in the world is at my fingertips -- and instantaneously! Furthermore, I don't have to pour through material which is of no interest to me. I ask my question and I get my answer. And it is an answer coming from up-to-date knowledge, not information that was current when a journal was published 10 months ago. In my field, 10 months is a long time.

So here I stand -- perhaps not completely understanding the technology I am using but most certainly using it. I truly believe that my patients benefit considerably because I am using this constantly evolving technology.

Robby

Browsing through Story of Civilizations where we are discussing about Anciant China. Mal gave us this link this morning and I thought it would be interesting for us here as we are looking into the past to try and see what the future holds. I hope this works. Ah! this technology.

http://www.logoi.com/notes/ten_laments.html

Eloïse

I love all this technology. I've worked with computers since the 60's when I was a Remington Rand keypunch operator. We punched cards for the Univac. So I have managed to keep up with technolgy and I have enjoyed most of the new products. However, this new digital stuff has me a bit twarted. I bought a new digital clock with the statelite control and it took me quite sometime to figure out that all the button had two functions. I did manage to finally get it all ready so it could take care of itself.

The worst instrument to figure out was a new timer for a light stand. It can be programmed for a week. That is if I can figure out how to do that. Each time I thought I had it, I didn't. Marjorie finally figured it out for me. I would like to cut down on the time the light is on, but I resisting changing the settings.

Sage

I think I was a pretty good bookkeeper but needed more clerks or a swifter way to write checks and post payroll information so I bought a bookkeeping, for payroll, machine in 1954 made by NCR and learned how to use it. it had 8 vertical addition lines and it would add up the eight horizonton entries both horizontally and vertically, so I had my balance information. As I typed information and the check, it posted to the journal, and to copied to the subsiderary payroll ledger all at one entry .. and it took me about 4 hours to learn how to use it. Not to understand how it worked, but to use it.

From there I went by 1960 to the largest NCR Bookkeeping machine there is and also was learning abuot computers by entering my accts rec. data in original invoices a certain way so we could farm them out to a computer company on contract. I had to go to the computer co. and learn just what the data entry girls did, how to read my printouts and how to merge this data with my data at the office. I by this time was giving lessons to other people on the NCR and I had learned how to program the bars for different applications myself. I was planning to put a computer bookkeeping system in for all our accounting the year hubby and I divorced.

These machines were all extensions of the cashregister (I first use that when 15) and the typewriter, blended with a 10 key adding machine and a calculater. They all ran on "machinery" which I could see and sort of understand. I saw what the keys were doing as I operated the machines. I used all these individual machines for a long time in my own business with my husband, and when we were apart and I worked for others it was wonderful having all this experience.

My kids got their first pc computers around 1982 and I began seeing what they could do. So in 1984 I went to classes to learn a word processing program but my company didnt install the computers. So we kept typing our work a good 5 years longer than was financially responsible. Still it takes a long time to change and when the companies began switching to computers there were a lot of youngesters who were ready to do the job but not many people my age were ready to switch over. I bought a word processor for home which was just wonderful to me and then when my daughter brought me her old Mac pc I couldnt wait to learn that new technology. It was not so new then but, a few more upgrades in cast off computers and by 1998 I was on the internet with a pretty good understanding of the programs I was using but every day I learn something new that this(my own brand new as of 2002,pc built by son will do.

I dont know that it changed my life and that is why I am telling you my experience with machines. It added to the ease with which I can do things for sure as did every new piece of equipment I bought for my business. By having it in my home it keeps me active and learning. I believe this keeps the brain from succumbing to early loss of functions. Just an idea that use it or lose it is not just a saying.

I think my children helped keep pulling me forward though as these machines would have been to expensive for me to buy just for my home use and they gave me the used computers and now finally a really fast system with many fine applications on it. And when I need instruction and technical help it is just with in a hands reach as the kids are very willing to assist me. They all are involved with computers in one way or another. What I need to do next is get more involved with graphics. Christmas might just bring me a program. fr

It is my pleasure to step aside to permit Eloise to be the sole Discussion Leader for this forum. As you may have noticed, she has already been taking the prime responsibility in facilitating this discussion and in a most capable manner. Although I will continue to be the DL for Story of Civilization, I intend to be a regular participant here and am looking forward to some lively exchange of opinions.

Robby

Faithr - How interesting. I too was on machines starting with the old fashioned typewriter at the age of 16. Never went without one in my life. If I am not mistaken, those who worked on machines found it easier to adapt to computers. Men who had secretaries to do their typing have to learn how to use a PC from scratch and that is a big drawback.

Robby - Thank you so much for helping out as co-discussion leader to start this forum. I learned a lot from you on both Democracy in America and Story of Civilization. Please feel free to comment whenever you feel like it, it will be most appreciated.

As I am learning more and more about Gerontagogy, I am discovering that on SeniorNet we are at the avant-garde in this discipline. I receive an education here while learning that education inevitably happens to everyone throughout life. We learn from each other while we discuss about what is stored in the wharehouse of the knowledge we acquired.

"Gerontagogy as a Disciplinary Science of Education: New theoretical Model in Education. A. Lemieux, PhD Professeur à l'Université du Québec à Montréal."

"A model was built for the continuing formation of Seniors. The individual inside this model is already formed and recycled, but he wishes to acquire a competence within certain courses to improve his well-being as much on the physical and psychological realm as the social one. This approach will likely expand greatly with seniors in the future if we take into account the ageing of the population."

I translated this loosely as I think it reflects very much a reality that Seniors are willing and able to further their education and technology will help them achieve this.

Eloïse

Well, technology can certainy assist in suppling the Student who has age related disabilities such as dimming eye sight and hearing, with the use of devices to bring that person not just glasses and hearing aides but a computer screen that is ajustable so that even the near blind can see it, also coming up soon voice control which will eliminate typing and using the mouse and we already have on the market this fall the Tablet, a handwriting recognition system for pc's.

These advances will let those who have already acquired the knowledge of how to operate the pc's to continue on. All things being equal I do not forsee ever having to stop using my pc for staying in touch with children and friends and the world at large. And if my mind stays as clear as my forebearers did into old age I should be able to keep learning new things all the time. I have developed several hobbies just by being exposed to them on the pc. Needlepoint for one. And I am investigating the graphics world and will come up with something there later this year. That will be a big learning experience.

For those who are still in the process of learning it is even more wonderful today than when I began, and will continue to advance. Oh there are some problems to be worked out still. For instance a poster mentioned how difficult it is to program some of the appliances she has, such as a clock. I found that too, and my cell phone was an enormous problem until my daughter spent some time with me and the book and those darn little tiny buttons.fr

FAITH: You hit the nail on the head. Cell phones are getting smaller and smaller. Is it just that the technology is available to allow that? How do people with fingers larger than a child's use those tiny buttons? How about people with arthritis or visual problems? They aren't supposed to have cell phones? The people who are making a lot of the technology, that isn't specifically targetted as something to aide a specific handicap, aren't paying any attention to the fact that all of us differ in our physical makeup.

CHOICES

My computer guru was just here and he mentioned something so important that I had to talk about it. It is that now with communication technology being so part of our daily lives, we always have to make choices between so many more options than before.

For instance if I want to call the phone company, I am given 5 or 6 choices to start with and I click on number 2, I still get 5 or 6 options, then if I click on no 4 choice, all of a sudden I find out that I am in the wrong choice altogether and have to start all over again.

Most seniors did not have to make so many choices before, they had to choose between one or two options and you could take some time to think about it. Not today, your brain has to run very fast to decide on which button to push otherwise a ‘voice’ will come in and say that the choice was too slow.

With computers it is the same thing. If we click an icon, a window will pop up giving us many choices, make the wrong choice and you are wandering around in never never land.

A farmer now cannot just think “What will I plant this year?” He goes to his computer now and has to analyze the market, what the weather will be like, look to see who will buy his product, all this in the flick of an eye.

How that is affecting our lives is interesting. Does it make us more intelligent? More productive? Better communicators? I don’t know.

Not only are there more and more choices. There is more and more information available about a given topic, often to the point of overload. Where to start, what to focus on, and how to evaluate it all is an ongoing problem.

I also remember my company getting me the NCR bookkeeping machine in 1961. But what a noise it made. I loved using it but had three of our clients try to get me to come and work for them as they had also bought one and their bookkeeper refused to switch over to them. They did not stay for to long did they? Sure gave a good report though sort of like the first sheets that came out when Data proc. started .then came the Key punching. Gone a long way in 25 years. I have always like learning something new.

JeanneP

Funny in retrospect. My mother worked in a bank in Conn. In the early 60's the bank brought in IBM to computerize--Mother asked to be part of the new team. IBM--oh no! Women are much to emotional to use the computers. True story, honest Abe! Hey gals are you too emotional? Are you driving your computer crazy? BTW, ever see a man working in a bank now? All women where I live.

Re: "BTW, ever see a man working in a bank now?"

Yes. Some banks more than others.

Some Senior Netters like chat rooms where there is a rapid back and forth conversation to the point where one does not always know who is saying what to whom. Others (like myself) like discussion groups where someone can post a question and I have all night to answer.

Robby

In 1981 I went on a temporary work assignment at a Service Office for Burroughs Office Equipment. The products we serviced were facsimile machines and Redactron word processors. I had used a typewriter all my life but when I walked in the door of this small office (I was the only clerical worker for 5 district service managers), I was shown a word processor that I was to use. Never had I laid eyes on anything like that! It was a single unit about 4 feet tall with a keyboard and a monitor built in to it. I was taught how to use it by two of the managers and found it really nifty.

About that time we heard PC's were coming, but we could hardly believe it because these word processing units were selling like hotcakes for around $11,000 each -- mainly to legal firms who found them very, very useful. However, they also broke down a lot. I had a phone call once from an attorney in S.F. who said that if we didn't get a repair tech there within the hour he was going to throw his 3 leased pcs out the window of his building!

I worked in that office for 3 years before moving on to another job. There I used a Wang, which again was a stand-alone unit. I knew what it could do but I just had to figure out how to make THAT particular machine produce it! I did. I then went to a company that had a Xerox memory-writer - which was like a typewriter but it had a little monitor on a stand in the back corner of the machine so you could see what you were typing, and it also used floppy disks.

My first home computer was a Tandy 1000. It was a good starter machine. Next I got an IBM and had to learn about software. I started on WordPerfect and got so proficient on it that I could make it do everything but sing! This was all pre-Word. I don't think the word "Icon" had been used yet in any of the software packages.

I then moved to a company that had PCs but they were using WORD 3 instead of WordPerfect. I HATED it. This version of WORD still didn't use icons but there was a bar down at the bottom with words on it that described what you wanted it to do and you used a combination of keys to effect that happening.

All this was pre-mouse days. Finally I got a job where the used higher versions of WORD -- and Microsoft revolutionized both word processing AND me.

My grandchildren (age 27 and down) cannot imagine a time when computers weren't at hand. But you guys all know that it just wasn't so long ago. We still remember that walk through the uncharted territory of new, developing technology. I worked full time for a temporary agency and I was always being faced with something I didn't know how to operate. It was a real challenge but by the close of my working life, I was teaching others how to use word proccessing programs to their fullest.

The exciting thing is that there is always more being developed and we get to learn it. I think it is a great thing for us seniors.

Another thing about buttons on telephones (although maybe this ought to go in the Gripes and Grumbles forum!), but certain kinds of operations don't give you very much time to make those choices. If I'm punching in a bunch of numbers (say, the numbers on my credit card), I have to look at the card several times to get all the numbers punched in.) And at least one of the places I used to go says there will be a $25 fee if you punch in the wrong numbers! Obviously I don't use that one. But these kinds of problems are very frustrating for those of us with arthritis.

Gail - I worked for temporary agencies also and I had to adapt the new job instantly, but I was not so talented as you are at learning how to operate new machines, but a quick adaptation to change was crucial. That is a plus, I think.

Robby - And choosing not to answer is OK too. Before, I used to be a bit put off if someone did not answer a question I asked, since I the internet, I realize that it's better not to say anything sometimes.

Pedln - I know what you mean. We are suffering from information overload. To make the right choice takes reflection, better step back, I feel, than to jump in and only guess that the decision I take is the right one.

Texas Songbird - You mean that a company really charged you if you pushed the wrong button? They must have lost a few customers. I think seniors are often frustrated at having to adjust to all this push-button technology because of health problems. Technology does not have only plusses, it does have a downside to it.

Eloïse

Eloise -- I wasn't actually CHARGED because I didn't do it. They give a warning on the phone that says there will be a $25 charge if you enter the charge card number wrong. I didn't want to take a chance. The problem is that if you don't do the electronic credit card thing, it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a real person -- you go through about five or six layers of menus, maybe more, and may or may not get a real person at the end of that. I can feel my blood pressure going up every time I deal with those people.

Tex, try just pushing the O key. You might get a live person that way.

Yes, the O (for Operator) key usually brings somebody.

Robby

A most interesting article comparing how children learn to how older folks learn. What is the relationship between learning early in life and learning when older but practicing and prcticing. Click HERE to get an idea how long you will live and what your Future holds.

Robby

Robby - The most highly motivated and driven adult can never learn to speak a second language as fluently and as accent-free as a child can.

In Quebec several people learn English in their late teens early twenties and become absolutely fluent. Later on, I agree it is harder. A total immersion is necessary.

The courses I took in Spain dealt with this subject most interestingly.

What do you people say about learning in later life? Is it harder or easier if we put aside the short-term memory?

Eloïse

Thanks for the suggestion about the 0 key, but I tried that. I ALWAYS try that, first thing. When you press the 0, you get a message saying, "That is not a valid option." Is it any wonder I start pulling out my hair!

I do not having any trouble learning a new task. I can remember how to do it next time I try. I have trouble with short term memory in remembering exact book plots and names of books I have just finished reading unless its one I am rereading from years ago. I have learnt to not let this detract from the enjoyment I get at the time I am reading the book. No one taught me how to use the internet I taught myself. My doctor who is quite young was most impressed with this accomplishment! I would rather participate in discussions than chat but I do like one to one on MSN with family and cyber pals. MSN is wonderful for communicating with the kids when they are overseas. I find I am not missing them nearly as much as before I got MSN.

Carolyn

Do you folks notice any difference in your memory from what it was about 5-10 years ago?

Robby

I upgraded from 64mb to 512mb.

Yes, I have definitely noticed some deterioration in my memory -- especially short-term. And I've noticed I have trouble with words -- I say or write words that sound like other words, but aren't the RIGHT words!

Like somebody mentioned before about books, it's that way for me with music. Even today I can remember the words from music from the '30s (when I wasn't even alive, but it must have been playing during the '40s) and the '40s, but not recent music (if you can call that stuff music!).

TEXAS SONGBIRD: I remember one time trying to get an operator. I tried the 0, then #, then *, then 9, and finally got the operator when I hit 8. Sometimes the easiest thing is to wait out the menu and when it says "if you have a rotary dial phone, hold ..." just pretend you have one and wait. That works too.

Learning is much harder as years pile on me. If I make a change onthe puter, I write down every step I take, because I will never remember how to do it another time or how to revert to the previous state if I don't like the change.

Passwords I am using almost daily for years and still there are times I have to go check my little book because I suddenly find a blank in my mind. I did learn to use the computer my myself but it is still hard work to add to that knowledge.

My spelling took a sinking plunge this last year. I think chatrooms are responsible for that one: too many people write phonetics or shortcuts instead of the proper way. It is hard not to do the same and say :Cya and Have a gr8 day!

In mature age, learning a new language tends to erase another one less used or not used at all.
Bubble

Texas Songbird - Do you think that losing a bit of short-term memory is bad? If you are using a computer, then you had to learn how to memorizing its functioning. I forget the names of people I just met all the time. It's only after a few meetings that I remember, but I noticed something lately, my memory has improved a little. I remember names better and I am under the impression that it is because the computer is forcing me to remember more information. Also it is because I can do the things I like to do.

The memories we have in store takes up a lot of space (smiling) and the few things that we can't remember off hand are less unimportant.

Before the computer I had to go to the library more often, I subscribed to newspapers and magazines and I admit I read more books than today. But now, I can select my activity and it is less costly in the long run.

Carolyn - This instant communication with loved ones is a definite plus although I find I would like to see their faces as I communicate with them. I don't know how they react to what I am writing. No eye contact, no body language no way of knowing whether they are smiling or a frowning. You have to develop other ways to get to know this. The written word is different from the spoken word. What we say is quickly forgotten, but what we write is permanent. It makes people more cautious, more reserved but less spontaneous.

Eloïse

Eloise talks about wanting to see faces as she talks to people? My guess is that within the coming five years most of us seniors will be able to see on the screen the faces of people we are talking to. That is the speed at which I see technology moving.

Robby

Eloise, when I talk by instant messaging to my family and to some select friends, we see each other, we smile, we make faces, and we blow kisses! A web cam installed on top of the monitor costs only U.S. $50.- and it gives much pleasure. It can be used with no additional programming with ICQ, Yahoo and a few others. Bubble

Eloise with my immediate family who communicate by MSN there is no problem. We say it like it is. There is no holds barred. We will tell each other what we are thinking or feeling. However with people we do not have an intimate relationship with I agree one has to be very careful what you say or write. I perhaps make people uncomfortable because I am so honest.

Carolyn

About memory. Sure, I forget things, but I forgot things when I was 14. At first, when I was older, I worried a little about not remembering stuff. Then I told myself my brain has become so loaded with information that unless I have the right trigger, there are things I won't remember. By "trigger" I mean something which will stimulate the memory. So, instead of stewing about this and struggling to remember, I relax, and before very long what escaped me comes back to me. If you don't give the right command to a computer, it won't remember, either! I see that Eloise has said much this same thing.

I agree with Robby that before very long we will be able to see and speak to those with whom we communicate with the computer. The webcam is just a primitive step, in my opinion.

Mal

My daughter just sent me the URL for a most exciting and interesting page called "Molecular Expressions. Science, Optics and You." This is interactive. After the Java applet downloads, you can control what you want to see, whether it is the view from millions of miles out in space or the interior of a cell. Be sure to click the "Photo Gallery" link on this page. What grand technology this is!

Powers of Ten

Mal - I emailed your link "The power of ten" to Dan my son-in-law who has always been interested in science. You should see how forgetful Dan is and he is only 40 looking like 25.

Is it time for seniors to think that getting older is not the only thing responsible for forgetfulness, but in part due to a lack of practice.

Bubble whenever I read what you write, I should be ashamed of my spelling. Only thing is I forgive myself for lots of things and especially spelling and grammar because I didn't learn much of that in school. When you say that learning another languag tends to ERASE the one less used or not used at all, I have to disagree on the word 'erase' because I agree that if I use French all the time, I lose some VOCABULARY in English, but erase it? never. It snaps back whenever I start using it again.

Is global warming due to science and technology? if so, I wish I had been born a century and a half ago. This is the first year I am sweltering like this. How about you?

Eloïse

Robby wrote an essay about "Learning In Later Years" a few years ago and I am putting in a link to it. Please read it and tell us your impressions.

http://www.seniornet.org/gallery/wrex/rbilearn.htm

I am listed as lenm but I am DOY . Eloise I find this folder very enlighting I don't have much to contribute but I think I will keep comming in and learning from all of you.

What you say about the phone I also have trouble getting a human being. It is really frustrating.

I also learned a lot by trial and error. I love my computer and look up many things on it. Also it is a great way to keep in touch with friends and family from out of town.

DOY

-----------HAPPY 4TH OF JULY TO ALL OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS---------

Today there will be celebration throughout the US and I will be watching some of it on TV. It is always a spectacular event that rises my own Canadian patriotism.

You have a wonderful country that is the envy of the rest of the world. The plusses far outweigh the minusses by a long shot. So continue to be proud of your country, it deserves it.

Eloïse

Hi! Doy, I remember our sitting together in Williamsport' at the banquet. Thank you for visiting. Tell us about yourself, we would like to know. There is always so much that happened that sometimes, we discard it, but it is important to let people know about you.

Somehow how could we discard clichés from invading our life. I am so happy that on SeniorNet we can start to do that. It might teach others that we are people who have lots to pass on because of having lived longer than most. We are not 'over the hill' not 'the elderly' not a clump of people who are all the same called 'seniors'. We are different from each other, we have aspirations, ambitions, talents, we can love as much as when we were young, only better. We have no 'senior moments' no 'at my age you know' no 'forgetfullness'.

We have what everybody else has, physical ailments, lapses of memory, skin that loses some elasticity. But we also have huge stored information that is just waiting to come out. We know what we learned through pain and suffering and experience, not in theory from people who think they know because they read books on ageing.

To be confident, to be optimistic, to look enthusiasticly towards the future will make the future better. It will have its problems, but they only give us a chance to exercise our much utulized problem solving capacity.

Do you agree?

Eloïse

Eloise -- I really like what you said:

**We have what everybody else has, physical ailments, lapses of memory, skin that loses some elasticity. But we also have huge stored information that is just waiting to come out. We know what we learned through pain and suffering and experience, not in theory from people who think they know because they read books on ageing.***

That is important to remember and something I tend to forget when I get frustrated with some minor lapse (either of my mind or my body). But we do have so much to offer in the way of experience.

Also, there's a paradox that I've noticed with age. For one thing, my experiences have made me more compassionate and tolerate. On the other hand, in some situations, I am much more assertive (some might even say "bitchy") than I used to be. I speak up for myself, and I let people know when I'm upset. It's interesting to see how those two things can co-exist!

Texas Songbird I am like you said, more inclined to be assertive regarding what I feel, want or am planning to do or what I will and wont do.. It is hard on my kids sometimes as they were use to a pliant(?compliant) mother who went along to get along with everyone. Not now. I changed somewhere around my 60'th birthday- dont know exactly ..and now at 75 I don't go along just to get along anymore. The ones who dont like it can make an effort to understand or just go away. I no longer worry about the little stuff. Songbird I gave my pole away. Remember the old saying about person who "polevaulted over mouse turds!" That was me. Faith

Hi Eloise and all who post in this folder. I appreciated the invitation you extended through the Generations (UNC) folder and decided to drop by. The first thing I read, Robby's essay on "Learning in Later Years" was enough to make me want to subscribe, and, of course, the hostess of the folder! Thanks for posting the essay and thank you for leading this informative discussion. Glad you are back from your travels, and I am exchanging this for the Quebec folder in my preferences. I loved your exciting trip and look forward to the detailed information you will be making available to us.

Hi to Doy.

DOY

E;oise I love this folder . Texas Songbird and faithr you have expressed my feelings whole hardedly.

My children think I AM TO OLD AT 73 to do do a lot of things. I listen and then do what I want. If they like it OK if not to bad as long as I am healthy and still I hope have a sane mind I LIKE TO DO SEE AND LEARN EVERYTHING.

DOY

There are some tutorials on the page titled "Science, Optics and You" which I linked to this discussion the other day. On some there are pictures of scientific things made through micro-photography. It struck me that many of these are like art.

Many of the graphics artists whose work I use on web pages for my electronic magazines have either gone off the web or gone commercial. This has necessitated some experimentation with graphics on my part.

I downloaded the picture of Endorphins from one of the tutorials I mentioned and fooled around with it today. The link below will take you to the result.

The picture in the middle of the page is the picture of Endorphins I downloaded, reduced in size. I made the border on the side by cutting out part of the picture and turning it into a border background by using my Adobe PhotoDeluxe program. The blue of the body of the page is the same blue that appears in the original Endorphins picture.

When I uploaded the images of the Endorphins picture and the border background I made to the web through my FTP (File Transfer Protocol) program, I discovered that these images were much too heavy for a web page background. The endorphins picture was 51 kilobytes. The border background image was 35 kilobytes. If I left the images at this weight, download time for the page would be much too long, so I went to Gif Bot at www.netmechanic.com and reduced the size of these images to 17 kilobytes and 13 kilobytes. Then I re-uploaded them and went to my html program. I use Hippie 98 as an html program.

I typed in the proper coding for the images and the rest of the page, uploaded the html page file and looked at it through Netscape and MSIE. There was a seam in the border I didn't like, so I went back to PhotoDeluxe and cut the image so the seam didn't show. Re-uploaded the border background image and the html page again. Click the link below and you will see the original image and the border background I made. Maybe you'll see it again sometime as an index cover page for Sonata.

I have to add here, folks, that I was 74 years old July 2nd, and have taught myself most of what I know about html (Hypertext Markup Language) and building web pages through information on the World Wide Web which I found with searches on my favorite search engines. I made my first web page when I was 69 years old. Compared to what I do now after five years of experience, it was pretty darned bad, but at the time I thought it was a magnificent accomplishment!

Endorphins Background Page made by Mal

Mal - That is absolutely stupendous. It is so lovely, colorful and creative. It is wonderful what you do with your computer to the delight of all of us here on SeniorNet and on the web. You are an inspiration.

Thanks you Mal for being here with us.

Eloïse

Mal that endorphins art you did is truly beautiful. It reminds me of a scarf I paid a hugh amount of money for many years ago and now I am going to go looking for it. I tried to do some stuff in Photo Delux with some flowers I had pictures of but didnt turn out anything beautiful. I really need to practice more at that stuff. I am still messing around with my Office programs like Publisher. I know how to use the templates but I want to learn how to set up my own. I never stick to it though and I know I could learn it if I would. When I want to accomplish something and am truly interested in it I do it. The advantage of age eh, I don't have to if I don't want to.... faith

PS I am going to Sonata now to read some more. Good issue, as usual.fp

Put Mal together with Technology and you have the Future!

Robby

Malryn ~ your endorphin image your did is very creative and colorful. Just today I was playing around with some Escher-style tessellations....lots of fun! I'd like to see you post your images in the Computer Generated Arts discussion. By-the-way, you do an excellent job with the Sonata and Wrex online publications.

EmmaBarb I visited the Computer Generated Art Discussion with delight. I know Clare from years back and appreciated her work. The mighty computer will do anything but sing as someone said once.

It is delightful to come here every day and share everybody's thoughts and experience with Technology. Our future is bright indeed.

If you were making a television production on the elderly, what would you people like to see? Such a production is in the process of being started and the producers would certainly like to hear what you all have to say. Anything on any subject is important. This is our chance to change something we don't like about how the ederly are perceived in the media, on the street, in the family, in the world, in the health field, to something we would like.

My son-in-law and my daughter have a film production company and they are the ones interested in producing such a film. I will pass on this information to them.

Eloïse

ELOISE: A TV production about seniors, in my opinion, should lean heavily on those who are still active at any age. I would LOVE to see the same kind of interviews that are usually reserved for the young, but emphasizing senior viewpoints. And MOST OF ALL, please include makeovers, make-ups, fashions, etc. that are appropriate (but not old-lady/old-men appearing) for us. One more wish: Is there a way they could talk to travel agencies about SINGLE travel without big penalties? The reason SeniorNet bashes are so wonderful is that we can go alone, but still find friends when we get there. All of the agencies price EVERYTHING "double-occupancy." (And the older we get the more privacy we can use.) NOW AREN'T YOU SORRY YOU ASKED? (I have too many opinions, don't I? But we get enough of old, helpless, pitiful, do-what-you-can-to-help stuff. Just emphasize the UP side of aging and it isn't so bad!)

No I am not sorry I asked Helona, we can gripe too about what we find unfair for us. Where do they put you if you walk alone in a restaurant, by the kitchen against a wall? Or as you say, the cost is so much higher when we travel alone.

I think that to talk about fashion is very appropriate. Not enough designers will take the trouble to find attractive clothes for older women. But on the sit-com "The Golden Girls" they were always fabulously dressed. You don't see those in shops you know.

Are we vocal enough? Do we let the industry know what we would like to have instead of what is on the marketplace which seems to always be designed for the younger generation. Fashion, cars, appliances, hardware, decor, the 'font' sizes on the computer, etc. I don't see many older people willing to stick their necks out to demand better services. The baby-boomers will, but why wait that long?

Eloïse

Eloise - are you the same one I remember from a discussion a few years back on Third Age? We had a plan to allow people to create their own clothes by computer and it was quite fascinating but finally fell apart.

Anyway, this discussion makes me think of how the fashion "gurus" tell us larger ladies to always wear stripes that run vertically on the body but, what do we see when we look among the clothes for the "Queen" sizes but horizontal stripes! Seems that somewhere people are asking for advice, somewhere else people are giving advice, but the people who are doing aren't listening. Not just in clothing styles is this happening. Pity.

ELOISE: Interesting you should mention fashions on "The Golden Girls," because I loved them too. Unless you could afford to have a personal designer, those would never be available however. They aren't "on the rack" clothes. I wish I knew who we should complain to. It's not that we aren't willing to let the industry know what we want, but they are just now even SLIGHTLY interested in our opinions. Now that the next generation is supposed to have a HUGE number of seniors, and since they exercise and stay fit, suddenly industry is sitting up and taking notice of where a lot of money will be spent. (I think a lot of money MIGHT have been spent by our generation -- IF anyone had paid attention.) Unfortunately, all the emphasis on seniors has been on Nursing Homes and Medicare. We deserve better.

If any of you watch BBC you will notice that in England the mature (60 and older) woman has beautiful dresses. I never see dresses for me in my size (20) except sleevless things for the beach like a tent or sometimes skirts and tops which are not what I see. On some of their sit comes they dress like I would like. I especially love the dress with the long coat that is what we called a Reningo (sp) when I was young. My mom who was this same size when this same age did find lots of soft jersey printed dresses mostly princess lines which looked wonderful on her. That is what I see so much of on BBC. Even the Queen doesn't have much prettier dresses than the general "woman" I see. Faith

Diane - I remember your name too. Fashion, like everything else is designed by the young for the young. We have to let them know we are here and are willing to buy products if we like them. In Spain I saw young girls wearing the same style of dresses as the elderly ladies. Clothes on the racks for women are very feminine. Here we don't seem to have designers with the older woman in mind.

Helona - Interesting. When the media thinks about older people, stress more the negative aspect rather than the positive.

That is something that we can change. Our attitude, we have to be more confident about ageing. It is not a disease. In our classes we got some advice from our teachers:

Be ACTIVE, have a hobby and pursue it dilligently, LET LOOSE your impulses, DRESS in colors to enhance your personality, your beauty, ENCOURAGE products advertised using older models, SPEAK out softly and firmly about something unjust, LOVE your wrinkles, white hair and eye glasses, because they tell others that you survived. LISTEN more and talk less. THINK positive, WRITE down your memories for the younger generations. They are interested.

Eloïse

Do you folks believe the younger generations are truly interested in the older generation?

Robby

Yes Robby, but you have to read between the lines. I am always surprised to hear my children recall something I told them 30 and more years ago.

The grand'children love hearing their grand'parents stories and their parents too, after they have become wiser, less arrogant and cocksure of themselves, when adversity has brought them down a notch or two. The baby boomers were born with a silver spoon in their mouths and don't know yet what adversity is. It is best to write about the past, it leaves a more permanent mark and teaches other generations how it really was when we were young.

I wonder if I am the only one who thinks that way.

Eloïse

Being interested in one's own parent and grandparent is, in my opinion, considerably different from being interested in "older" people. I think that youth have a world of their own and unless "age" is thrust in their faces as, for example, living with or near a grandparent, they don't see that the "present" of the older generation is their "future." Many of them find wrinkles, illnesses, slow motion, different modes of language, and conservatism of no relevance to them whatsoever.

When I saw a very attractive girl, I didn't ask myself what she would look like when she was older or whether she would be a good mother to my children. I cared only about our possibly getting together. The Future (except for that evening) did not exist. I had a grandmother on one side and a set of grandparents on the other side and loved them very much but can't say I spent much time thinking about other "older" people.

Robby

Yes, it's true what you say Robby, but it doesn't matter what youth thinks about old age. They live in their own world as you say, but the attitude their parents had towards the grand'parents, remains in the back of their mind to be remembered later when youth becomes middle-age. Youth is only interested in youth, but that is temporary.

What I was mentioning before is how we are perceived and how we perceive ourselves. Do we want to cater to a temporary youth's desire to stay young forever and imitate them? or do we want to accept ourselves as we are? If we don't, it removes a large part of our thinking process to replace it with an irrealistic desire to stay young forever. We are as young as we think we are mentally and physically we do the best we can to keep our health by doing what is necessary. There is enough information out there to stay as healthy as we can with what we have been given to start with.

To change the message in the media, we must start by showing what positive elderly do and think regardless of how old they seem to be to the younger generation. That is not important for the purpose of making a film about ageing. What is important to convey is that it is OK to age, that age is not a handicap. What a film must show is people who are happy about being what they are, how they look, how they talk, how they work. No? Yes?

Eloïse

I am reminded of the film "On golden Pond" with the Fondas and K Hepburn. Bubble

I noticed your remark regarding how the women in England dress. True they do make far more dresses etc for older women. Reazon being that you very seldem so a women over 50 or even younger wearing pants. I very seldom wear them myself when I go back there. Infect I prefer to wear skirts and tops here. The long skirts I really feel comfortable in. All I am wearing this hot weather. Now in winter I wear Jeans. I use to always buy my mother a couple pant suits when she would come over here and she would wear them and enjoy but never did she put them on when she went home. NOw there it seems like only the very young women are wearing pants. Here about all one sees no matter if person wears size 4 or size 24 they can buy all kinds. Yes even shorts in the big sizes. And they will wear them to the malls.

JeanneP

I think that there is a vast difference in what younger people (let's say that means 20s/30s) know and are interested in now than when I was in that same age group.

Off and on ever since the late 1950s I have kept journals, which I still have, and much of what is recorded in them is what I did with my friends for entertainment, what we read and talked about and so on. My friends were an eclectic group - white, Hispanic, a few blacks, who earned their livings in a variety of ways from porter to textile designing in a big city. But much of what we were interested in was anchored in the past, i.e. - we had a knowledge of our cultural inheritance, and in the case of Hispanic friends we quickly learned at least bits and pieces from that cultural world. And we participated in events from what is often termed "high culture", i.e. legitimate theatre, opera (of course money was a limiting factor) - as well as pop concerts, disco dancing, soul music, and so on.

What I find in the 20/30 age group now is a massive disconnection from our cultural past, something approaching abject and pervasive ignorance. And it seems fewer and fewer dip into or sample "high culture." Quite frankly, I find them dull as dish water - they are like the cakes that bakers used to put in their window displays. Gorgeously frosted, beautifully decorated, but all this slathered onto a cardboard model. With what seems to be so few anchors they float in a sea of groundless opinion buoyed on their emotions. Something that the popular culture panders to - fast and dirty (as the saying goes)and highly individual sensation.

I lived for ten years an apartment bldg that became filled with young people in a neighborhood that had become a youth ghetto. I found that I had no trouble getting along with youngsters though the few remaining older people (all younger than myself!) did. However, I saw these kids as exotic savages and was interested in their music -loathed most of it, but at least knew about it - knew who the latest concert-giving electronic immortal of the next five minutes was, etc. and spent a good deal of time in the local Starbucks chatting with my younger neighbors. But there was no real link because we really shared no deep cultural well - living in the same country, carrying a passport with the same seal doesn't make for sharing a common culture. I think most of these people are clueless about the world that shaped older people - and have virtually no interest in it or in older people. Not out of any particular animosity, but because their world is only fragily connected to anything other than the latest media and entertainment sensations. It is a world in which Schindler's List, Terminator and Spiderman have the equal and evanescent weight.

For myself I'm glad to use the latest technological stuff available, but largely to propel a life that is quite traditionally oriented. I worked in a major computer center for twenty years, beginning in the 70s. I was on the Internet in the 80s, and watched the quality of communication go into the toilet in the early 90s as it was "democratized" as the pundits had it, i.e. became the toy dominated by adolescent mentalities. Like televsion technology it will have its great applications, but advanced computer technology will be debased in the same way and will be used as much to manipulate and control people as to inform and advance.

Jack

Jack I do tend to agree with you. I love my children dearly but 3 of them although they are wonderful parents have no interest in the wider world outside of their business interests, friends of their own generation and their own children. I asked about the neighbours where my son lives in the UK. I asked if he had a social relationship with them. "Oh no" he said "one lot are in their 70's and the others in their 50's" This is the common feeling in the thirty something generation.

Now the least discriminatory towards elder people are the under 10's. They love elderly people. I watched 8 toddlers in the doctors waiting room yesterday including my own 20 mth old granddaughter. These little ones of all ethnic groups communicated with each other and the elderly people in the waiting room with with no self consciousness whatsoever. Even language was no barrier. One lady a NZ native lady was about 90 years old. The kids were very pleased she was taking notice of them and were interacting with her in such a beautiful way. I had such a lovely time watching this interaction the long wait seemed like a few minutes. Children learn discrimination of all kinds from their elders.

The media does not give any positive press about elder people either. In fact the younger ones are always being told what a drain the baby boomers will be on the country's resources. Therefore there is a negative feeling being put into the community about elders.

Carolyn

I should balance my previous post by talking about the way my eldest daughter and my sister have educated their children and made sure they interact with elderly people.

My daughters MIL has been in a residential institution since before Brooke was born. MIL had massive stroke leaving her unable to live alone at 63. My daughter has taken her children at least once a week often twice to the residential home. The residents adore the kids as do the kids the residents. It takes my daughter an age to get along the corridors as the children are called into every room along the way. They also go into the dining room and the lounges. I have seen Brooke (4) entertaining the residents in the dining room with song and dance and everyone having a great time interacting. The residents buy chocolate bars from the treat trolley and save them for Brooke and Grace. Brooke and Grace are growing up to have no fear of people with disabilities- they ride on residents laps in the wheelchairs and I see Brooke take her grandmothers hand and help her along the corridor if she is using her cane. She mainly uses a walker however. When the wheelchair is used - Brooke from age 3 has pulled out the footrests and put her grandmothers feet on them. The only thing Brooke has ever said to me about her disabled grandmother is "Granny you can walk properly and you can drive your car by yourself- Granny Georgia can't," then she said as an afterthought "but I can ride on the wheelchair with Granny Georgia"

My sister has been a home carer for the elderly for 6 years. In the school holidays she often has taken her children along- they are now 13 and 17. Her children are also used to elderly people and used to interacting with people with severe disabilities including intellectual ones. The clients often asked for my sister to bring the children often they never saw their own grandchildren or great grandchildren. My nieces would do little chores like trim and water outside potted plants repot indoor plants etc. As my eldest niece grew up she would deputise for her mother if her mother was ill. At 16 my niece could toilet and get a meal for clients. In fact she had her own lady she looked after for a while after school. Through this interaction my nieces are more caring than the average teenager and communicate easily with older people.

We have to acquaint our children with the negatives of aging and turn them into positives. Not every elder is as active as many of the people here on Senior Net. My mother never sees how many people of her own age are disabled as she mixes with people who are extremely active for their age. My sister thinks there may be as many as 40% of people over 75 who have health problems which restrict their social lives.

These people need to have social contact with people of all ages for their own mental well being. We must teach our children not discriminate against the infirm elderly.

Carolyn

According to an item in the New York Times, the city of Denedin, Florida, is adjusting its traffic lights to give pedestrians 15 seconds more to cross the street. It is also putting in wider sidewalks, shelters for bus stops, and stop signs with bigger, easier-to-read letters.
There are now emergency call boxes on sidewalks and a ready supply of church volunteers to escort the elderly on their errands. The city is building a $1.7 million center for the elderly, largely state-financed, offering computer and fitness classes, a dinner theater and line dancing. The city is also beginning to provide many low-income elderly residents property-tax breaks beyond those allowed by the state.
Dunedin is one of more than 40 Florida communities working to be certified as "elder ready" under a program introduced in 2000 by the state's Department of Elder Affairs. The program, Communities for a Lifetime, is the nation's most comprehensive effort to encourage independent living by older people.
According to the article, to gain "elder ready" status, Florida cities must demonstrate that they have made changes to help the aged in categories including transportation, medical services and law enforcement. A city that wins approval will be permitted to post signs proclaiming itself elder-friendly and receive promotional support from the state. The participating cities themselves assess everything from ambulance response times to whether the police department trains officers to spot schemes that bilk the elderly.
The state is also encouraging communities to look for ways to make everyday life easier for older people, like asking banks to install A.T.M.'s with large buttons and encouraging grocery stores to include checkout lanes exclusively for the elderly.
How about them apples??!!

Robby

Merci mes amis. I am so pleased to put all those posts in Isabelle's folder in anticipation of her work regarding the elderly. I am learning a lot by just reading your posts because even if I live surrounded by family it does not mean that there is not another world out there.

It is wonderful to see what Florida is doing in favor of the elderly Robby and things are perhaps going in the right direction.

Last evening, I watched a TV program that my SIL and daughter produced about a young quadraplegic DANCING in her whealchair with a professional dancer and it warmed my heart that she could fulfill her dream of becoming a professional dancer in spite of her handicap.

Eloïse

To go a step further, it will be a boost for people whith disabilities to have computers which are able to register their voices and translate it into characters. They would be able to join a discussion this way

There is more information on voice technology if you click HERE.

I am always fascinated by new technologies and as you say Sopraan it could be so interesting for those who can't cope with the keyboard to participate in a discussion.

More on voice technologies coming from our very own Canadian Bell Systems on this site HERE

I wonder how they will handle 'accents' as there is a variety of them when you speak any language. Or perhaps everybody will have to adapt a standard one? Oh! No! that would be awful because it makes a conversation so interesting when people use different accents I think.

Eloïse

ROBBY: Interesting what Florida is doing. It just shows what can be done if the ECONOMY dictates it. All of the retirees that have migrated to their state makes it a politically and financially strategic move. That's what I keep hearing about the '50s-Generation as they become the new "Pushers." For the rest of us, and for the places we live, it is more wishful thinking right now, but I am happy to see future, positive changes in the making.

Sopraan their are programs on the market that do that have one sitting on the shelf on the moment but lack disk space to load it but my nephew has got it on his Computer and it works very well but it takes time to train it to recognice your voice but will also store new words for you in dictionary so it is a ever expanding program he can do three 4A pages a hour that way so not to bad compared to normal typing I think have a look in computer stores

Eloise that is the phone system we used to phone you at the time via Computer lines spare capasety a lot cheaper than normal phone lines we find see you all later interesting folder look every day sins starting have fun.

Jerry.NZ.

"Savvy patients with a proliferation of health information at their fingertips are challenging the professionalism of Canada's doctors, according to a new policy statement adopted by the Canadian Medical Association."

I don't know if you are like me about health problems, but sometimes I research on the internet for more information. I talked to my doctor about it and she doesn't seem to mind. What I find on the internet is not different from what she tells me. I also research the medication and its side-effects before I take it. I wonder how many people do that?

Is it good to question what the doctor tell us about our health? Or should we blindly do what the doctor says and trust that he knows what he is doing?

Eloïse

Eloïse: I've read various polls which say the #1 reason most people search for "something" on the internet is to find health/drug information.

Don't trust ANYONE blindly, including doctors.

Robby

I sure will second that statement.

Gentlemen - Could you elaborate on that for us please, because according to advertisement on television, in the media, in ads, when someone wants to sell a product, whether it is health food or vitamins, or what we eat, we are constantly being told "CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR" on anything and everything you can think of. Blindly is not exactly the word I agree, but do doctors know everything?

That is why I believe in double checking what should be done about my health, then I make a choice according to my own judgment. Several times I have gone against doctor's advice or failure of advice and have done well with it.

What do you do?

Eloïse

I understand there are many "Perks" provided to doctors by the Drug Companies. Is this conducive to an unbiased opinion?

Eloise, the advertisers are merely trying to protect themselves from lawsuits.

What the drug companies want is for YOU, the consumer, to go to your doctor and urge him/her to prescribe the advertised (and usually very expensive) medication for you - whether or not it's necessarily the right one for you.

Mary

ELOISE: I agree with everyone who has made comments on your post #121. I ask lots of questions; I look things up on the Internet; the pharmaceutical companies want me to go to my doctor and have her prescribe the expensive drugs; and the advertisers are trying to save themselves from lawsuits. I also do things without asking my doctor, e.g., the vitamins I take, and, sometimes, choose to not do what my doctor recommends. At the moment I am lucky because I think the doctors I have are good ones. That isn't always true.

Mary is right about the advertisers. I sometimes wonder how many people really go to their M.D. to ask for a new medication they have heard or read the advertisment for. I did ask once why he was giving me an old old medication that did not work well, for stomach reflux disease, when there were so many new ones on the market. He didnt answer in words but went and got samples of several newer medications. We decided together on the one that most suited my symptoms. It caused a lot of side effects so we went to a different one and I have been using it for four years now and have had wonderful control of that problem. Now they have more new meds but since I am under good control I havent switched mostly as a matter of cost I guess. By the way I research all my medication on the internet and also my supplements.Faith

I am a doctor and run across this discussion constantly with my patients. I do not personally prescribe medications but I am a member of the Department of Medicine of the local hospital and work closely with the other doctors. Not only do I tell all my patients to check carefully whatever they put in their mouths or what behavior to follow but I tell this to all the members of the local Chamber of Commerce of which I am a member.
I urge everyone to be in charge of their own bodies and minds. This does not necessarily mean that they know what is best or that they know better than their doctors, but they have the right (yea, the obligation!) to do what is best for their own selves. I urge them to gather information. For example:--
1 - Examine carefully the credentials of the doctors they deal with. Read the credentials on the wall. Ask questions.
2 - Gather info from the Internet but, at the same time, ascertain who this is on the Internet who is giving such info.
3 - Gather info from the TV commercial but, at the same time, ascertain what company is giving this info and listening carefully to the "fine print." (side effects)
4 - Give their doctor complete info about their symptoms, leaving out nothing even if it appears small and unimportant.
4 - Listen carefully to what the doctor says.
5 - Tell the doctor what the Internet or TV said.
6 - Tell the doctor your concerns and ask questions. If he/she avoids the questions or becomes angry or authoritative, find another doctor.
7 - If he or she is helpful, then listen and be willing to change your mind.
8 - In the final analysis, YOU are making the decision as to what to do with your body and mind, not him/her.
Don't be too quick to complain if you are not taking any actions on your own behalf. Do not visit a doctor with the attitude that he or she is a magician and that you are placing yourself in their hands. This is what caused many of them to believe they are God in the first place.

Robby

Dr Robby - Thank you very much for very sound advice. I am sure everyone here will benefit from it. I especially like item No. 4 where you say to leave out nothing even if it appears unimportant. That little nothing that seems unimportant to us can be a big thing to the doctor when he/she gives advice or medication.

Another thing to add to Robby's list would be to provide each of your doctors with a complete list of medications (and their strengths) that you take, both presciption and over-the-counter medications and/or supplements. It's very important for your doctor to keep a check on these things, especially when possibly adding a new Rx.

Mary

Yes, Mary, an excellent suggestion! I'm sorry I left that out.

Robby

I have a delightful doctor - young mum - caring but she can get busy and is not infallible. Point in question- I had a bad sinus infection - hang over from the flu. I visited her on Saturday and got my usual meds plus asked about something for my infected nasal drip. I did not look at the script til I got to the pharmacy. I discovered she had only prescribed my usual steriod nasal spray which you CANNOT use while an infection is present. I knew this because having multiple allergies I research everything I am prescribed. I had to phone her and get her to fax a script for one of the only two antibiotics I can take to the pharmacy. Much as I respect my doctor I keep a close watch on my scripts.

Carolyn

"With the proliferation of health information and advertising in the popular media and on the Internet, health care 'consumers' are increasingly challenging the professional judgment of physicians, often on the basis of information that may be inaccurate or poorly understood."

This can threaten the health of patients who refuse to accept a doctor's recommended treatment and also lead to higher health-care costs for society" I found this information HERE

There is another side to over information that should not be overlooked. If medicine has not been my field of expertise in the past and because the internet so readily gives information, there is a danger that I can be doing myself more harm than good in my judgment of what I need to stay healthy even after decades of reading about health.

I feel that prevention should be uppermost in our priorities, don't you?

Eloïse

zwyram -- Excellent point. Right now I'm taking arthritis drugs, heart drugs, and a glaucoma drug (I don't have glaucoma, but was having some eye problems and so they're treating me as though I have glaucoma, since I'm at risk for it.). The eyedrops were the last prescribed, and my doctor took note of the other drugs I was taking, and said something like, "Ordinarily I'd put you on ABC, but because you're taking that heart medicine, I'm going to put you on XYZ." I, for one, was glad he was paying attention.

As for all those ads on TV for medicines, some of them cause horrendous side effects that are sort of "brushed off" in the ads. That is, they mention them, but don't indicate severity or how many people might be affected, and certainly not how they interact with other medicines. Every time I hear those ads, I am just amazed at the gullibility of people who would go ask their doctors for things that might be totally wrong for them.

And in my case, because of the cost of those ads, every arthritis drug is in the non-preferred area. My Mobic used to cost $40 for a three-month supply. Now it's $100 for the exact same medication under my new insurance because Mobic is non-preferred. But so is Celebrex and Vioxx.

ROBBIE: May I add one more request to your list of doctor/patient list of responsibilities? If the doctor takes time to explain what the prescription is expected to do, what side effects can be expected and how long before the benefits might "kick in," it would certainly help. The more we know about our treatment, the less apprehensive we become. Understanding the expectations of medication or therapy is extremely helpful.

Is it the purpose of this forum for seniors to view their own future related to technology or to view how technology in the future affects everything and everybody?

Robby

Yes Robby perhaps we are straying a bit away from the purpose of this forum as there are several health discussions on SeniorNet.

I was thinking about how the Internet permits us to establish long friendships with people we didn't know before. Not only with family and friends we met long ago, but with fairly new people.

Carolyn was mentioning a while ago about how she uses MSN for keeping in contact with new and old friends. But I was wondering how internet could overcome its mysteriousness in the sense that we don't see or interact with cyber friends the same way we do with those in front of us.

Do those internet friends we develop fall by the wayside for lack of personal contact? Can we really continue 'talking' through writing for a long time? Can we have the close bonds we have with the friends we can see and touch? Is there a language here that we never use while speaking? Can we relate as well or do we stay forever far away not seeing how a person reacts to our words, our attitude?

Also there is the danger that anything we write, even when it is deleted, can be brought out and used against us? Does that impair spontaneousness and the delivery of emotions?

Eloïse

I have followed the principle of CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware) when it comes to doctors, hospitals, treatment and medications for years. We are, after all, buying services and making purchases. We are in charge.

I believe that the state of my mind influences the state of my body and my health. It is I who am responsible for both my body and my mind, not some medical doctor.

At the moment I don't believe there can be a fair comparison between online friendships and those that are face to face. Each is unique, and both are different. We learn a great deal from messages posted and emails received, however. I've met several participants in SeniorNet, most of them writers in the WREX Writers Exchange. Only once was I wrong in my assessment of a person whom I'd known previously only online.

How can messages we post be used against us? Most of us use screen names. My identity is known through the electronic magazines I publish. The address and phone number of most people whose names are known are easily available on the web if they are published in any telephone book. Up to now, after five years of publishing magazines on the web, I have never had an adverse experience because of the use of my name.

Some people have a fear and a kind of paranoia about the internet, I've noticed. If certain guidelines are followed, like not giving out your ISP password to anyone, there is no reason to have fear as far as I can see, just as there is no reason fo fear viruses in one's computer if he or she has an anti-virus program installed and does not open files which are attached to emails.

Mal